“We have information and this information is generally open, and there are ideas to provide some of these migrants with firearms, so that they can attack the Polish border guards,” said Pawick Jabunski, deputy head of the State Department, in an interview. At RMF FM.
These sanctions, which have been imposed at the moment, are an extension of the list of people who will be banned from entering the European Union to at least 166 people. These are the decision-makers in the apparatus of power, so it is important from the point of view of the work of this state. (…) Belarus is currently unable to do anything, and is going through a huge economic crisis. If necessary, the next stage of sanctions is the expansion of economic activities. All options are on the table at the moment, both issues related to transit and border closures The diplomat explained.
When asked whether it is possible to completely close the Polish-Belarus border, the diplomat replied: There is absolutely such a possibility, but we will see the effect of the sanctions approved yesterday. It is not that at this point we can use all the arguments available to us, because we also have to take into account that the situation at the border today is very tense, but it could be much more dangerous. We hope that it will not come to this, that this level of Belarus’s willingness to escalate will not be infinite, and that there will be a pause somewhere. – added.
The situation is really tense and could get worse at any moment. We must realize this that we are dealing with an eccentric partner, with a partner who – hopefully – will stop at some point, but we don’t know what the moment will be. We must be prepared that the situation will seriously get worse – said Pawick Japonsky, Deputy Head of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs, in the Internet segment of the morning conversation on RMF FM.
The Deputy Minister also referred to the dispute with the Czech Republic over Toro. At the end of September, the CJEU decided that Poland would pay the European Commission 500,000. Euros per day for not implementing temporary measures and stopping lignite mining at the Turów mine. We will try to achieve such a solution so that we do not pay these fines – Reassured the Deputy Minister of Foreign Affairs.
He added that the important point that the Czechs do not want to agree on is the possibility of early termination of the contract: It is a matter of the practice of international law that sometimes long-term contracts are entered into, but always the possibility of an early exit from them in the event of unforeseen circumstances. It’s hard to suppose that there wouldn’t be such a possibility here – added.
Robert Mazurek, RMF FM: Information on the 50-minute telephone conversation that Angela Merkel had with President Lukashenka. Is this not a blow not only to the Belarusian opposition, but to the politics of the whole West, the European Union, but also to Poland, which did not recognize Lukashenka as a legitimate president, and now please: when it comes to Lukashenka getting what he wants, Angela Merkel speaks to him.
Bowie Japonsky: Well, not with President Lukashenka, but with Mr. Lukashenka. In the contact address from the conversation on the website of the Chancellor’s government, it is stated that the German Chancellor spoke with Mr. Alexander Lukashenka. This is a very strong signal confirming what we know that Germany does not recognize Lukashenka as President of Belarus.
They may not officially recognize him, and may call him “herr Lukashenka”, not “chief herr”, but when it comes to what, they consult with him.
No, it’s not quite as if they were consulting him. This is a conversation organized by the German chancellor, and we know about it, because our diplomats are also consulting with German diplomats on this matter. It can be evaluated differently, and it can be evaluated positively or negatively. Of course, Belarusian propaganda is trying to present this as a diplomatic success for Alexander Lukashenko.
This is not his success?
If a person manages to make a phone call, this is somewhat indicative of his position. A phone call, after which the advertisement shows him not as the president of the country, but as a rapist in reality, a dictator who breaks international laws …
Minister, but the situation at the moment is that we have a massive conflict on the Polish-Belarusian border, on the border of the European Union with Belarus, and at that time Germany is talking to President Lukashenka, Alexander Lukashenka, as you prefer, and the US authorities are urging Vladimir Putin to get involved in resolving this conflict. This is exactly what they wanted to get.
This is not what they wanted at all. First of all, Germany and other EU countries unanimously took a decision on sanctions yesterday.
Are these serious penalties? The fact that 30 people will not be able to enter the European Union?
Another 30 people, people who participated in this practice. In fact, if we talk about what Belarus wants to achieve, we know that for months Belarusian diplomats have been trying to send such a signal that if the sanctions against Belarus in May after the hijacking of Ryanair and the arrest of Roman Bratasevic, if these lift the sanctions then they pull these immigrants . They did not achieve this, and today it can be seen that they received another package of sanctions and that their main goal with which they began this process was not achieved. And the fact that the Germans or the Americans talk to other leaders, they talk to us first, they talk to the Lithuanians, they talk to the other countries involved.
Yes, they talk to us, but when it comes down to it, they will talk to Lukashenka and Putin about the most important things that are above our heads.
Also, please do not say that this is a public conversation, when preceded by prior consultations with us, because we may always have a grudge when someone talks about something to each other, and Poland is not at every table. Bilateral talks also mean that you sometimes speak without the participation of other countries, but both the German chancellor … We have constant contact with German diplomacy, and when it comes to sanctions, Germany has been a very cooperative country here. The President of the European Commission spoke with the President of the United States immediately after her conversation with Prime Minister Morawiecki. The main topic of conversation between the Chairman of the Committee and the President of the United States was Belarus, and I think this shows very well that Poland’s efforts to internationalize this issue have proven successful.
I wanted to talk to you about this. We know what the border guards are doing, we know what the army is doing, we know what all the services are doing. But what is Polish diplomacy doing? The Lord speaks of punishments. What sanctions, in your opinion, should be imposed on Belarus, so that our listener understands what these sanctions are, and what exactly are we going to do with them?
These sanctions, which have been imposed at the moment, are an extension of the list of people who will be prevented from entering the European Union to at least 166 people, because perhaps this list will be expanded further.
166 Belarus cannot enter the West.
These are the decision-makers in the apparatus of power, so it is important from the point of view of the work of this state. Not recognizing these people internationally, and treating them as the aggressive party and not as conversation partners. Belarus is currently unable to do anything, and it is going through a huge economic crisis. If necessary, the next stage of sanctions is the expansion of economic activities. All options are on the table at the moment, both issues related to transit and border closures.
This is what I want to ask you about. Poland has a lot to say here, because crossing into Belarus from the west is mainly through Poland. A little through Lithuania, a little through Latvia, but mainly through Poland. Is Poland considering a complete closure of the border with Belarus?
There is certainly such a possibility. However, we will see the impact of the sanctions that were approved yesterday. It is not so that from the very beginning, in every country at this moment, we can use all the arguments available to us at once. Because it must also be taken into account that the situation at the border today … the situation is very tense, but this situation could be more dangerous.
the worst …
We hope it doesn’t go that far. I hope that this level of Belarus’ willingness to escalate is also not infinite, and that it stops somewhere.
Minister, to whom is Poland talking at the moment? Of course we are talking with the West, I know that, but are we talking for example with Russia about the situation in Belarus?
We are talking, yes. We talk to Russia and Belarus in different ways. But when it comes to diplomatic conversations with countries that take aggressive actions, even if you wish, you have to remember that diplomacy is with a party that is simply unreliable, and who simply serves to deceive his opponent. Well, they cannot achieve their goal by themselves.
I understand that we cannot believe the Belarusians. What do they even tell us?
Quite often there were such situations in which talks with the Belarusian side were held by the diplomats of other EU countries. In these conversations, various assurances were given about the readiness to de-escalate, the readiness to stop this practice of bringing in immigrants. At the same time, or a day later, more transports arrived at the Polish border, so the level of credibility is very low. Unfortunately, a diplomatic conversation with such an irrational and unreliable partner cannot bring success. However, when it comes to diplomatic activities, we do many activities in the Middle East. This is very important because what happens with airlines …
The Middle East, i.e. the point is that the countries of the Middle East should not allow these people to come to Belarus.
exactly. There, since the beginning of September, a very intense diplomatic work for the Polish foreign minister, the diplomacy of Lithuania and the European Union. We’re getting as many participants involved in this as possible, and the effects of that too take time, of course. But we have the consequences. More airlines are suspending flights, and Belarusian consulates in the Middle East are closed. Indeed, at a moment we will have limited possibilities to act when it comes to Belarus. Because the possibilities of work in Belarus will be significantly limited compared to what they were in May. This is the effect of Polish, Lithuanian and other European diplomacy.
